Cars and the trust problem

Raph Koster took part in a huge research about levels of trust and grouping in video games. Please understand that “trust” in game theory isn’t about moral betrayal but simply failure to cooperate for any reason, like “you can’t trust Anne being on time, she is often late”. They point out that multiplayer games must be designed focusing on the trust level of the players: “a game might fail if it calls for very high trust, but people tend to play it with strangers”. They also set the goal of using the game to improve trust among people.

For example killing a random mob together needs very low trust. Even if the other guy does zero DPS, you are no worse off than playing alone. Acquaintance games need some level of trust, mainly trust in reciprocity (I do my part, you do yours) like the one you’d expect from a WoW pickup group: don’t pull mobs, don’t ninja, don’t spam hate, do some DPS. Games that call for friends include incomplete information, blind moves, synchronous coordination, for example Mythic Raiding with a fixed team. True high trust games start featuring permadeath mechanics, prisoner’s dilemma, self-sacrifice for the good of the group, and so on and can only be played with people you really trust. The only in-game equivalent I can think of is account sharing (which is banned exactly because GMs don’t want the drama when this trust is abused).

They point out that games with non-overlapping roles require trust. If you can’t heal yourself, you must trust that the healer can do his job, while you can carry a sucking DPS. The problem (which they implicitly try to solve but fail to) is that players like high-trust mechanics (like classes, complicated bosses, epic adventures with lots of people), but without the needed trust, the experience turns out horrible. They also point out that making a high trust game is easy as the mechanics are self-evident. Anything “realistic” is necessarily high-trust, as the humankind is built on high-trust cells like families. Then Raph arrives to the elephant: “What’s hard is designing for high and low trust at the same time.” and while provides some tips how the game should look like, none of them is new or non-obvious. The advises are “do X but don’t overdo it” kind of “sweet spot” euphemisms of “well, we have no clue how to solve it”.

Now comes the part where genius Gevlon solves what so many researchers couldn’t. Except I don’t have to, because it’s already solved.

Driving cars on the road need the highest level of trust, just like Raph’s favorite example: flying on the trapeze. I must believe that none of the other motorists will crash into me, causing serious damage in my car or even killing me. The other motorists are total strangers, I don’t even have time to look at their faces. Yet traffic functions properly. It also has great scalability, works at night when barely anyone drives and in a rush hour too. If we answer why traffic works, we can easily design games that have high-trust gameplay shared with strangers.

The solution is external authority. There is a third party in the equation: the state that does the following:

  • Formalize the patterns of driving, informing all drivers how they should drive in order to do it safely. As long as everyone keeps these directions, no accidents will happen. These rules set clear responsibilities: it’s always clear which car shall yield to the other.
  • Issue driving permits to those who are trained and tested to be able to follow the above directives.
  • Punish those who break the trust by performing actions that could lead to accident (speeding, drunk driving, ignoring road signs and red lights). Seriously punish those who cause accidents.
  • Enforce mandatory insurance system to guarantee that any monetary damage caused by a “trust-breaker” is paid.

How would it look like in a video game:

  • The tasks of the players are clear and responsibilities set. For example if a mob must be kited, one player must pick up a kiting item which defines him as the kiter of that mob. From there no one else can help kiting that mob, that’s his responsibility.
  • The game system issues statistics to show how the player performed previously in that role. For example when a raid leader seeks a kiter, he can look up the applicant’s “kiting score” which he earned by doing content as kiter.
  • The game should explicitly call out who failed, which act both as punishment for the failer and removes the burden from the raid leader. For example if the kiter moves the mob right on the raid, killing them, the game itself should issue a raid warning “Adam failed to keep Evil elemental away from Betty who is now dead.” Of course this assumes that the raid locations are defined by the game, so if Betty wanders off and hugs the elemental, she’ll be called out.
  • Problems caused by fails must be player death or non-damaging penalty (like an undispellable debuff). Avoidable damage punishes the healers, not the failers.
  • Raid repairs after wipe is on the failer, enforced by the game system.

This way a Mythic progression raid can pick up a complete stranger as the game guarantees that he has past experience in doing the task (even if not on this boss), calls him out if he fails and punishes him instead of forcing another player to confront him. Not only such game allows trusting the stranger, but helps building trust by providing strangers who likely not abuse it. Groups are more likely give a chance to someone who likely succeed than a total random. By observing him succeeding and helping in a task they cannot do without him, they will have more trust in him, likely even adding him as a friend for further raids.

Author: Gevlon

My blog: https://greedygoblinblog.wordpress.com/

17 thoughts on “Cars and the trust problem”

  1. Interesting. One thing that is a bit unclear to me is how to get an initial good “kiting” score. Especially if your new and genuinely trying to learn the mechanics, how do you avoid being permanently marked as bad for your early mistakes.

    Or to continue on your driving metaphors, who is paying for the driving instructors in this game design?

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  2. I think the “trust’ dynamic is dependent upon the activity, and varies greatly based on the relationship needed by said activity. Since all M&S can play games, and all M&S can drive cars, participate in sports or other dependent activities, it’s safe to say that dependency is determined long before the “trust’ dynamic even comes into play. In Vanilla WoW, the trust factor was defined by loosely defined and unstated needs of the game. If people wanted to finish Deadmines, for example, they had to group in order to do so, and to do so they were forced to approach other people and ask for help, whether they were a random stranger or guild member. Trust, at this point, was assumed. You could “trust” that the people you grouped with were competent enough to contribute enough to finish the instance. You could “trust” that they wouldn’t ninja loot. All of these “trust” elements were -assumed- in the early stages of the game due to its design approach.

    However, it’s safe to say that almost all WoW players have had a certain aspect of “trust” broken while playing the game at one time or another. But do we really want a punishment phase to be implemented in the game that tries to mimick some “real world philosophy” of “feel good justice”? I’m not talking about addressing disappointment, which we all feel when “trust” is broken or violated, but rather that we are now taking the it to a level of where we need “punishments” or “mechanisms” that are implemented to reduce the frequency with which trust issues hurt us as gamers. If a games design promotes social interaction, then I know in my head that certain elements of my gameplay experience are going to be affected by other “people”. The mechanisms that would need to be put into place to negate the “human” factor in such a way would make for a very boring and sterile environment.

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  3. @retsep: why is it a goal to be able to carry a baddie? However if it’s a goal, he can be a pure DPS and other DPS can carry him.

    @niconorsk: you get your first scores solo against kiteable world bosses and leveling 5-mans. Based on this score you can queue for random HCs as kiter. With that score (and gear) you can be considered by lower raids as kiter.

    @Noguff: League of Legends has a “punishment phase” after the game where players report each other and loudly announce that fact.

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  4. @Gevlon

    “League of Legends has a “punishment phase” after the game where players report each other and loudly announce that fact.”

    If the game provides the mechanism to do as you indicate, then are the players at fault for using it, or the developers for implementing it? My point is how much “trust” should someone have in the game itself, to the extent that they aren’t belittled amongst their peers? If Koster’ goal is to make the game more social – by increasing elements that foster trust, you don’t implement anti-social elements in a game to achieve this. Socials don’t want to be held to the same standards as Achievers, the same as Achievers don’t want to be held to the same standards as Killers. I submit that for each of these groups, trust is established via different mechanisms for each. The same as is indicated by his gender data.

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  5. Well written! Poor or detrimental actions MUST have negative consequences, just like causing a car accident has in real life!

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  6. @Noguff: LoL consider the reporting feature a great success against toxicity. Even if it’s anti-social itself, it serves the purpose of removing “kill urself n!gger f@gott”

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  7. @NoGuff:
    There is a main difference between vanilla and now: cross-realm. In vanilla (and TBC and early WotLK) if you was toxic, soon the whole realm knew it and you were not invited in groups. Now if you’re toxic in a group there is a high chance you will not see them again. So now if there is no ingame punishment for being toxic then the preferably playstyle is toxic because you will not be punished on social level.

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  8. Yeah, I tried to read that article by Raph, but decided to stop because it makes a ridiculous goal:
    “They also set the goal of using the game to improve trust among people.”

    That’s not how it works. Humans have a “trust system” in the first place because we’re 100.0% non-clairvoyant. We can’t read minds at all, and can’t know what other creatures are thinking outside of “cold reading” and just observing behavior. As such, setting a “goal” to somehow design games where the game somehow improves trust, is pointless and smacks of technocratic elitism. If trust is going to appear and grow, it has to be allowed to do so organically.

    The entire POINT of a game is to have a totalitarian, absolute external authority that governs the game world and it’s rules. You don’t HAVE to trust others to follow the rules… they have absolutely no other choice.

    This of course, flies in the face of the desire to have classes that need other classes to function. We WANT to have people we can trust and rely on, it’s a need given rise by our complete inability to read minds. But that has nothing to do with the game, which is specifically a play space where no trust is needed. You can’t crash my car or kill me or burn my house down or anything else from within a game.

    So: You don’t NEED to design a game that “improves trust.” You need to design a game that understands that’s it’s a totalitarian rule set. If your customers come up and say “We want a class that has to have other people to wipe it’s butt, so we can have people we can force to be trustworthy.” You can just ignore them, because you know you can’t force people to trust.

    “Challenge”, and “the game needs to be hard” are the purview of single player play. Once you have cooperative multiplayer, the need for trust needs to drop, and the concept of “That other player can’t hurt me.” because of the way the rules work kicks in. You can’t have “A healer and a DPS” in that context, you have to have 2 DPS that can heal themselves.

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  9. @Smokeman: team games risen from the will of the people to have teams. While the game itself cannot make trust, players can form bonds and they like to form bonds. Also, ““the game needs to be hard” are the purview of single player play” is factually untrue. Playing League of Legends in platinum is hard (only 5-10% of the ranked players can do it) and it’s done in randomly matched teams.

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  10. Your logic doesn’t apply to toxicity, it applies to game design elements and mechanics – as you indicated in your post and subsequent replies. I’m fairly certain that the “reporting” feature in a game like WoW has had the same, positive effect on such behavior. Reporting toxic players is neither a new nor groundbreaking concept.

    I have to wonder if gamers operate under the assumption that developers make every single game in existence for -everyone- to play..? When it is obvious that they don’t. How do you change a game like EVE to where it would appeal to every single gamer out there? How can any gamer have trust in such a game when even you explicitly claim corruption, and are able to name certain members as being corrupt? Are we talking about designing a game, from the ground up, using Koster’s ideas and data? Or are we thought experimenting on what it would take to restore or increase trust dynamics in a game like WoW? Since the inception of LFR/LFD or forced grouping, I highly doubt that implementing a “kiting ability score” or similar metric would do much to increase the level of trust that players have. All you’re doing at that point is adding more hoops for the playerbase to consider jumping through.

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  11. @cathfaern

    “So now if there is no ingame punishment for being toxic then the preferably playstyle is toxic because you will not be punished on social level.”

    No one is arguing that the implementation of forced grouping didn’t have toxic effects. Players asked for and received forced grouping due to wait times and other variables. The same M&S that play WoW now, played WoW in Vanilla. The point is that creating trust is more effective when players can police themselves much like they were able to do in Vanilla, when server blacklists and reputations were critical and effective means of creating a trusted playerbase to interact and play with. As Smokeman states, we’re not clairvoyant, so removing our ability to police ourselves in that regard is never a good thing.

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  12. I find the “trust” to be mostly the buzzword used when the underlying issues are not being properly understood.
    In fact, i’m surprised you, being the proponent of everything anti-social, didn’t pick up on that. “Trust” is easily the ultimate M&S excuse. “I don’t want to prove that i can make things better, you just have to trust me!”

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  13. @Maxim: you must “trust” that certain people act some way or you can’t leave your home. You surely trust that your neighbor won’t attack you for no reason. We aren’t talking about “moral trust” here.

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  14. “@Smokeman: team games risen from the will of the people to have teams. ”

    Let’s go over that for a minute. Yes, people want to be on a team, but few are willing to actually put in the effort to be on a team. In LoL, there ARE people on teams. And those teams destroy the non-teaming players. Because… they’re a team, and they play symbiotically, and are really good to boot.

    You can also play LoL as a solo with the matchmaker. You’re not on a “team”, you’re on a side. There are 5 other randoms at similar ranking on the other side. When a side wins, ALL the players on the side win, the “team” doesn’t win… it never really existed. It never even had a name.

    Contrast that to the people who ARE on a team. Their team has a name. When they win, it’s the TEAM that is given credit for the win. Sure, the individuals go up in rank too, but it’s the TEAM that’s important to them.

    So in reality, LoL players are largely solo players, playing on a random side with 4 others. In the match, they have a lane with an opponent, or possibly a meta where they switch opponents, but they are playing for themselves, not a “team.” They are essentially playing a single player game within a greater multi-player shell. Ok, it’s a single player game with a similarly ranked human opponent, so there is an interesting grey area here.

    This format is clever, in that it gives the illusion of being on a “team” while you essentially fight solo. You also get to blame the others on your side for losing with impunity as you will all go your separate ways after the match. Or… you can chest thump on how you “carried those losers” if you win… again, the side disbands and no one can really challenge you on that.

    This is also why “LFR” in WoW fails so spectacularly. No one in there is on a team, and they act like it. The class format and mistake based raid mechanics try to “force” trust, and you can’t do that with randoms. If you removed the out of step with reality rewards from LFR, no one would go there.

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  15. @Smokeman: LoL is a team game to its core. You can (and usually do) lose to a teammate sucking. Yet people play LoL. And they play Overwatch and Counterstrike and awful lot of team vs team games.

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  16. Both you and Smokeman badly misunderstood the article.

    First, this isn’t game theory trust. This is REAL TRUST. The stuff that Smokeman says “Humans have a “trust system” in the first place because we’re 100.0% non-clairvoyant. We can’t read minds at all, and can’t know what other creatures are thinking outside of “cold reading” and just observing behavior.”

    This means first, by definition, stuff like the rule systems you propose AREN’T trust. They are mechanisms for when there ISN’T trust. That is not at all the same thing.

    On the flip side, Smokeman is dead wrong that there’s no way to design systems to help this along. The world is full of systems that do it, and further, humans do it without systems required! But many systems get *in the way* of doing it. It isn’t about technocratic elitism, it’s about avoiding designing systems that are anti-human.

    Lastly, you’re pretty dismissive of the conclusions on the grounds that they are obvious. I would suggest to you that if they were, the world would be full of games that met the criteria. But it isn’t. Therefore they weren’t obvious — perhaps only obvious in hindsight. Either that, or you should have made billions of dollars by now doing the obvious in a world where no one else can. 😉

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