CCP (and CSM) still doesn’t get the problem with highsec war decs

I’m still reading Nosy Gamer, the only blog left from my EVE days. Maybe I shouldn’t and I should cut all interactions with that game, but he is too informative and non-offensive. Now he wrote about how CCP wants to deal with wardecs that cause huge player activity drop.

The responses show that they still don’t have a clue why wardecs are completely broken. To understand, we must see that there are many similarities between highsec and lowsec, like no system ownership, NPC-owned stations that let everyone dock and no bubbles which make large fleet battles impossible as the weaker side can always run. So both zones are good for small groups. What are the differences between highsec and lowsec:

  1. Better ore in lowsec
  2. Better LP rewards for L4s in lowsec
  3. L5 agents are available in lowsec
  4. Valuable blueprints from lowsec incursions
  5. Higher level grinding and exploration sites in lowsec
  6. In highsec CONCORD and faction police come to your aid if attacked by a player

#1-5 are all “lowsec is better”. That’s crucial: lowsec isn’t “different” from highsec, but better. Safety is the only thing that makes people play in highsec. You have absolutely no other reason to play in highsec instead of lowsec. If everyone would become nice overnight and never attack anyone without consent, highsec would be totally depopulated as missioners, miners, incursion runners would move to lowsec for better rewards.

Wardec take #6 away. You can now be attacked, just like in lowsec. If wardecced, you should either move to lowsec for the better rewards, or don’t log in. So even in an ideal world, where players are motivated and capable of fighting, wardecs make highsec redundant. In this ideal world, no one plays in highsec, since there is no point: you’ll be attacked anyway, so why not take the better rewards of lowsec?

Of course we aren’t in the ideal world (as evidenced by the fact that I can’t play EVE thanks to CFC Falcon), so players don’t fight back, they just log off.

Wardecs should be limited to corporations that have structures in space. If you only do what you could do in NPC corps, you should have the same protections as NPC corps. (maybe with the NPC tax rate too)

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PS: this is too funny not to share:
trumpswift

Author: Gevlon

My blog: https://greedygoblinblog.wordpress.com/

11 thoughts on “CCP (and CSM) still doesn’t get the problem with highsec war decs”

  1. The point of “Wardecs”, and it’s a stupid one… is to allow lowsec peeps to prey on highsec ones. For no other reason than “To make high sec dangerous.”

    Let’s face it, Eve’s design is fucked up from beginning to end. There is no fixing this.

    If you eliminate high sec, the game dies immediately. If you eliminate wardecs, the game shifts totally to high sec. This is the price of forced open world PvP .

    Now… the game won’t DIE, per se, just drop to the status of a niche game, lower than it is niche now. Of course, the new publishers may cancel it when that happens.

    And you’re wrong on a crucial detail… people play in high sec (As you did) because they CAN DO IT SOLO. You are not forced to be someone’s bitch in high sec.

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  2. Once again, Gevlon. Do not forget those people who “meditate” (usually watch some TV-series in the background), while shooting red crosses in high-sec. I used to triple-box and blast through high-sec missions, while watching something and that was quite pleasant. Sure, after a week or two of such activities I usually moved into WHs. After a month or two there I got bored with all the mundane work of WHs, like scanning and stopped playing EVE. That happened for 6 years and for 3-4 months a year they got me to sub my 3 accounts. I dunno how many of such carebears are there in EVE, but I suppose there were some. Just presenting my anecdotal view on the matter.

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  3. @Smokeman: you can be solo in lowsec (Sugar Kyle did it for a year). You can be solo in a WH (I did it for half year). You can be solo in NPC null (some blogger I don’t remember did it for long). You only need to kiss ass in conquerable null.

    @Roman: and how is it not filed under “safety”?

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  4. I played Eve from 2010 to 2018, and loved every word you wrote. I actually read your blog from beginning to end… twice!

    But yeah, I’m with Roman (Altho I played a little different)

    The real lure of hisec isn’t safety, it’s what safety GETS you.

    (CCP Tried to make lowsec a LITTLE safer by having mining fleets defend people with high standing. I actually ground up my standing with ALL of them, even pirate factions! NOT NOT NOT WORTH IT…. The fleet can leave at anytime, you have to have +5 Corp and +0 Faction (Unadjusted) to get defended and the defense only comes to your help in the asteroid belt. (Concord comes anywhere in hisec))

    Anyhow. Safety in hisec. Safety, basically, lets you watch netflix while you play.

    I made my money 5 ways:

    1) . Explo
    2) Mining missions in Hodrold and NM- (NPC Null)
    3) Ran anoms in hisec in an arb/gila (FOF missiles and drones)
    4) Couriers in my freighter.
    5) BPC research and PI (1 week cycles in a 0.2 next to hisec. Oasaa if I recall)

    I kept track of how much I made. Explo made me a tiny bit more than the rest, but the rest were passive. There were MANY days I just ran courier contracts in a window and made an easy 30-40 mil per hour. Autopilot. Never ganked once.

    Anoms in hisec? 10 mil for an arbitrator and drones. Orbit a drone, and attack the first rat. All but the toughest hisec anoms are a snap. You don’t have to fiddle with scanning probes.

    Sometimes you get a dread spawn, sometims an escalation. And that escalation sig is private. (they can still scan YOU down tho).. Sometimes it ends up in lowsec, (those are the 5/10’s from a den, usually). You can sell them or risk a cheap drake.

    Mining missions? 2 characters. 1 in Hodrold, 1 in NM-. Do a mission in null. If a red shows up, dock and log in the other. (I hear nm- is pirate infested now)… (I’m a 1 account guy). It’s still 20-40 mil per hour. Totally passive.

    Explo was a TON of bother. For little more reward. either you are in a throwaway ship or a super expensive t3.

    (As an aside: I used to explore in a way almost no one else did: I ran around hisec in an ORCA that had scan probes. The orca carried ships to do all the sigs in hisec, low and null. Basically a Tengu/Gila/Drake/Heron/confessor. The orca never left hisec. When I saw a sig I docked up and ran it with the appropriate ship. If it was a WH, I docked up and explored it with my heron, and either found Data/ Relics (I ran those), or other WHs. I explored the WH chain as much as I cared to. I never ran “sleeper sites”.

    If I followed a WH chain I ended up in low or null… (There I ran the sigs) I had a look around the adjoining systems for easy sigs. Ran them. Then I zipped back to hisec, and went to the next hisec system.

    And I ran hisec anoms (And escalations!) in the ORCA itself with a gecko. or 5 mediums. (I would scan while the orca chewed the hisec rats)

    And you know what this got me? BUGGER ALL. Constant scanning. Constant attention. Constant Dscan. For tiny rewards. Or get 3 rooms into a dungeon and there’s the locals who’ve scanned you or the sig down…. Leave or fight. literally every time.

    Hisec? I’m doing 4/10 escalations in my arb. I can dock anytime. No ganking, no nothing and since it’s an escalation sig, it’s mine alone.

    But the catch is: Even tho lowsec (And null) is MORE isk, it’s a LOT More active. You have to be dscanning like a crazy man. You have to know the locals. And you never know if they’ve already scanned the sig and can warp right to you.

    When you factor in the loss of ships (and getting there, and back out), it’s a LOT easier to just do a courier contract.

    I’ve spent many MANY nights doing sig after sig only to be chased out and have a lousy 50 mil to show for it. While risking a ton of isk. And one hell of a specced character.

    Hisec is just better.

    Goblin: you’ve said many times they should nuke rewards in hisec and buff them in low/null/wh. That’s a given.

    But I think there are too many carebears who just pay to play eve as a single player game.

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  5. I think a bigger problem is how the combat is designed in EVE. If you are a carebear in a PvE ship you have no way to fight back against a PvP ship. It’s like trying to play arenas in (pre-Legion) WoW in PvE gear. EVE world is the raid/dungeon and also the arena but you have to chose to play only one way.
    Also and I might be wrong but I dont think lowsec is that much “better” to compsate for a loss of a ship very often or the constant docking.

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  6. I am laughing so hard whilst reading some of the commentaries and the minutes.
    It doesn’t look like anyone on the CSM really understands high sec, and some don’t seem to understand the wardec mechanics. This is not surprising when you consider the general affiliations of the CSM members…. the majority of high sec seems to be disinterested small corp or npc corp players. They only have themselves to blame for not getting representation on the CSM.
    If CCP were really interested they could organise a focus group… to get some relevant feedback.

    Knowing CCP they will probably come up with something like “you have to be 6 months in an NPC Corps before you can join a Player Corps on the first character on any account” or something *stupid* like that.
    Im reading it all with interest.

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  7. Lorelei: (I voted for you, per Goblin!)

    CCP didn’t even understand FLEET fights back in the day! They thought people “wagon trained” back to null when under attack.

    It’s one reason they hired Fozzie because he had fleet experience. (And Rise for Solo pvp)

    Liked by 1 person

  8. @Phil thanks for your vote (per Goblin)

    You know… if the null sec RMTers hadn’t (after 12 years) reduced the CSM to 10…. well I came in 14th this year.

    CCP just needs to carefully think what they are doing. So many problems can be avoided just by working on the learning curve for newbies.

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  9. @phil
    October 11, 2018 at 1:39 pm:
    (As an aside: I used to explore in a way almost no one else did: I ran around hisec in an ORCA that had scan probes. The orca carried ships to do all the sigs in hisec, low and null. Basically a Tengu/Gila/Drake/Heron/confessor. The orca never left hisec. When I saw a sig I docked up and ran it with the appropriate ship. If it was a WH, I docked up and explored it with my heron, and either found Data/ Relics (I ran those), or other WHs. I explored the WH chain as much as I cared to. I never ran “sleeper sites”.

    I’m curious about this! what ship(s) where packaged (unrigged or cheap rigged?) I guess the drake? and how much EHP did you make your orca? you mention single account? so no scouting, links or poor-skilled logistic account? Maybe this is too offtopic but please link to a more detailed pastebin or blog or something with a bit more information. I somewhat played with the idea of a nomadic life in EVE with an Orca! So I’m all ears!

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  10. Eve is a bullshit game.

    First of all, there is no content. A nicely equipped ship is in the area of 200M isk, that’s some 2 hours of skilled isk making. That ship will die in a minute of combat. Content to grind ratio: 1:120. Oh, and the actual combat in Eve is just trivial compared to games like WoWs.
    There is no content because +1 mechanics ensure there are no real fights. Fights are mostly decided before they start. You either gank somebody in a ship much worse than yours or you get ganked by one yourself.

    Eve is still marginally popular only because it’s the best game for complete losers. They can F1 monkey in 500 men fleet and think they won the battle. They can gank unarmed ships in HiSec. They can camp a gate in nullsec and kill shuttles. They can cloak-camp mining systems in nullsec and drop 20 bombers on a mining barge. They can “solo pvp” in LoSec with links and backup healers. Or, they can learn all the intricate mechanics of HiSec wardecs and kill noobs in Ravens.

    All of Eve is about letting some fucking loser kill somebody in a 20vs1 fight. Anybody who tries to play it like any other game and enjoy the fights goes instantly bankrupt because ships are extremely expensive (compared to isk making, see point one). That’s why they can’t remove hisec ganking and hisec wardecs, because it’s the favourite activity of the worst losers, which are the (possibly unintended) target population of the game.

    The other (intended) target population are people who like to play a complicated game of Solitaire. That’s PvE in HiSec. They will be well rewarded so that they don’t quit when some loser kills them.

    The game attracts victims with complicated economy and pretty space images then feeds them to losers in Catalysts.

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  11. This is a reply for Anonymous regarding exploring in an ORca.

    I’ll try to answer your questions… and a few more!

    NONE of the ships were packaged. All fit into the Fleet Hanger. MAYBE I the drake was packaged and re-rigged each time. Nowadays the Tengu can be repacked and keep the drones. Just about any sig can be done in a solo tengu or Gila… at least most of the ones I saw.

    EHP for Orca: Irrelevant. DC in low. Scanner arrays in med, 5mn MN drive for quick align. Bulkheads in rigs. Or maybe grav capacitor. Who ganks an ORCA on a gate for lousy ships in the fleet hanger?

    Single Account: Yes. Remember the ORCA DOES NOT LEAVE HISEC. Basically I scan down sigs while “Travelling”, dock up, do the sig with the right ship and relaunch.

    For the combat sigs, I never did much in null, I prefered lowsec…

    Have extra Heron’s for Ghost sites.

    The highs have a scan probe and a salvager. (There are good wrecks in hisec that can be salvaged. DOn’t loot them however).

    So basically the sequence goes like this:

    Eventually, you have to leave a system right?
    You leave a system when:
    No more Anoms.
    And
    Either:
    No more sigs (If you can dock in the system), or there are sigs but you can’t dock.

    If you can’t dock, you can’t switch ships. So the sig is useless unless you are either willing to “undock” and leave the orca at a safespot (ha ha!) or dock nextdoor and double back.

    I never bothered.

    If there’s an anom, warp to it. Do it. You’ll either get NOTHING, a dread spawn (loot it) or an expedition. If the expedition hisec, go and do it….

    If it’s a sig, it’s either BS (A gas site, Relic or Data, or a weird storyline site (Federal detention site or something). They are worthless in hisec),

    a Combat site (1,2,3,4/10). Dock and do them. If they turn to an expedition, follow it!
    (IN HISEC ONLY, Feel free to do them in a drake in low!)
    Don’t run the the 1/10. They are farmed, and you can’t get the key.

    A Ghost site: Dock and do in a custom Heron maxxed out for Data sites. BE SURE TO EMPTY IT BETWEEN GHOST SITES! (I put all my “loot” in the corp hanger)

    A WH.
    Dock and Enter with a Heron, (Or Astero if you are rich).
    Scan down all the sigs in the WH. most sigs will be WH’s. Some Data/Relics you can do if they have a pirate name to them. They are good money. The ghost sites are spectacular in WH’s. Please do them.

    Gas Sites: Only do them in Class 5 and 6. I always bailed after 10 minutes.
    There’s one you CAN’T Warp to, it has towers to start. You’ll find out which one!

    You will find a LOT of WH’s in WHS! Follow them as much as you care to.

    most of my Null/Lowsec explo tended to be Highsec – C2 – Other WH – LOW/Null.

    Once in Low/Null I would Log ALL the sigs in the exit system and all the surrounding system. Yes, this was labor intensive.

    So lets say I found:

    2 data
    1 5/10
    1 6/10
    1 gas
    1 Ghost

    In the surrounding systems.

    My scanning ship would run the data/ghost sites. I eitehr carry a depot with a relic and rigs or… even more. Sometimes I ran with 3 data analysrers, 3 relic and rigs for all.

    Why?

    Ghost sites. In low or NPC null I would dock and dump my extra/refit.

    I can fly all 4 explo ships.. all races. I could “buy extra” if a ghost site blew me up.

    If I had extra fittings left I would just put them for sale. Extra cash. Analysers and rigs sell well in the middle of nowhere!

    Then I’d run back to hisec, get in my “other” ship. I did a lot of lowsec sites in a gila. Null in a tengu

    Watch out for going “too deep”. If anything collapses your way home is gone too.

    If I was in lowsec I would just run home in my Heron, and grab my venture for the gas, or whatever.

    Do all the sites your “ship” can do. Run home.

    Switch and finish all of them.

    I sometimes did the ANoms in low or null. Good isk, good sec repair. Some fun escalations and dread spawns.

    I would also hunt low belts for clone warriors.

    It really depended on how hot the area was.

    The killer is the scanning. Just brutal. You run from system to system . Run down a WH chain and some guys freak out because it’s THEIR SYSTEM.
    (I once did a cycle of every hisec linked system…. TWICE!)

    I played around with two other “hybrids” of the nomad lifestyle:

    1) Base in Thera. Explore with Eve scout the other connected lowec/null systems. Problem? They tend to be “busy” systems. No orca tho, and no screwing around with the WH chain.

    2) Use thera to get characters into Null or Low. I’m thinking TENGU and 5 HERONS.
    Use the Herons as scouts (One account is an alpha account), and the best heron’s do the relic sites and the rest are scanners/scouts. The tengu runs the combat sites. If you were really good you could have different t3’s in Thera and use best ship for the race of pirates.

    When you get run out of scouts, just use a Depot on the Tengu , refit to warp stabs and interdiction nullifier and run for hisec.

    You could even set up a circuit or circle and just scan the “new” sigs.

    But if you need isk, start with BPO research on your characters and 1 week PI. It’s slow but steady.

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