Camps, firings and victories

Let just say I didn’t become too popular among my “friendlies” with my position that Jessica Price didn’t deserve firing. My post over the gamergater reddit got removed for “trolling”. Now the busy gamergaters are pointing out the double standard of journalists who celebrated the firing of the Subnautica guy and are outraged over the firing of the GW2 guys. Yet they fail to realize that they do the exact same thing. One of my oldest followers practically called me a cuckservative.

Sometimes I wish I was a social, mindlessly joining a camp, believing that “we” are good and “they” are bad and every defeat is because of evil conspiracy and every victory is an act of God.

However these camps won’t win. Good methods win. Logic wins. And going after the civilian life of a political opponent (may that be firing, digging up personal dirt, kicking her out of a restaurant) is a very bad method. It doesn’t damage the political idea, nor the person’s ability to fight for it. It just makes him hate us more.

Jessica Price spent most of her time developing video games. That was her day job. When she was off the clock, she spewed SJW nonsense. People didn’t like it and – to quote the classic – got out, created a crowd and pushed back on her, telling she’s not welcome anymore, anywhere.

Let’s not contemplate on stuff like “Jessica is human too”. I understand (though completely disagree with) the resentment among my friendlies that the SJWs never treated us as humans, therefore “deserve” no better treatment. Instead, let’s see what will happen with Jessica. She can’t make video games anymore, she won’t be hired at any studio because of her huge baggage. Except of course outright SJW places. She’ll either join with some SJW “art” studio creating games or films or comics or whatnot or she’ll join an outright SJW activist group making speeches and videos about patriarchy or white privilege full time.

If “we” don’t plan killing every single SJW, we must answer the question where should they go. My answer is clear: to a civilian, productive life. Sure most of them are uneducated (SJW studies don’t count any more than Scientology seminars) and can only work in blue collar stuff. But Jessica could work on video games, so she was right where we wanted her: making something that sells on a free market.

Please spare me from the “she wasn’t fired because of her ideas but because she insulted a customer”. Her SJW ideas directly command her to be dismissive towards white males. For her, being nice to white males is like making a gay cake for a Christian baker. Forcing her to act against her beliefs is equal to banning her beliefs. Guess what, she refused to, doubled down and escalated, like anyone with beliefs would do. The solution isn’t trying to break her, but the opposite, trying to lure her away from politics completely. Let her make video game dialogs instead of political slogans!

.

PS: clarification for the slow: unlike the “high ground” conservatives, I do not suggest to hold back on SJW groups and institutions. Gerrymander, pack courts, filibuster, litigate and spy your heart out! I suggest to leave the SJW individuals alone when they are not SJW-ing, just living their lives.

PS2: after the Trump-Putin presser I gave in to the guilty pleasure of reading liberal twitter accounts. It’s better/worse than election night.

Author: Gevlon

My blog: https://greedygoblinblog.wordpress.com/

19 thoughts on “Camps, firings and victories”

  1. — Your initial argument was really bad though, it was ‘Price didn’t deserve firing because there are others who do much worse and are not being fired’. Well, they all deserve to be fired, it is just that Arena.net is a company with a strong ethics and gets it done while CCP is a company with a weak ethics and cannot.

    — The argument ‘from the christian baker’ is also incredibly weak. In the baker’s case, the government could not compel him to bake the cake. The individuals around him are free to e.g. boycott his bakery. Same here :: If Price were being compelled by the government to “be nice to white males”, I would be first to agree that she is in the right — but there is no government involvement here. Her speech is not under an attack, the other private actor is free to fire her or hire her or boycott her games which is what has happened.

    — Finally, the excuse of ‘just following her beliefs’ would excuse all and any behavior and is therefore useless. A stoner is late for work one too many times because of his ‘belief’ that leaving the home without smoking a joint is unlucky, is his employer in the wrong for firing him? I believe they are not, and same applies here.

    P.S. I am pretty sure that someone with Jessica’s ‘baggage’ can get an employment at a ‘studio’, so let’s not pretend this into some kind of human piece drama.

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  2. @Anon:
    – using “companies” and “ethics” in one sentence is ridiculous. Also, my very claim is that firing people for work-unrelated political speech is unethical.

    – if X is wrong to do, then it’s wrong if the government do it and wrong if individuals do it. Sure, the bar for ENFORCEMENT is higher for the government because of its bigger power. The statement that “her speech is not under attack, she was just fired because of her speech” is obtuse.

    – The stoner did not show up for work, so he objectively failed to perform at work. The equivalent to the stoner would be Jessica refusing to cooperate with white male coworkers, making work impossible.

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  3. “And going after the civilian life of a political opponent (may that be firing, digging up personal dirt, kicking her out of a restaurant) is a very bad method.”

    First of all, ignore Reddit or the GamerGate crowd. Both are irrelevant.

    The firing was never about politics, it was only the narrative JP spun, when she realized she screwed the pooch and wanted to cover her ass. And you fell for it. Arena.net did not reprimand her for being a ‘leftist’ or a ‘feminist’, she got kicked because she had a position of communicating with the customer base (she hosted AMAs and did posts besides writing) and she went out and said things like “I don’t have to pretend that I like you when I’m off the clock” (implying it was all an act while she was “on the clock”) and called partners “asshats”. And suddenly because she turned the narrative into a political one, she should get a pass because… reasons?

    “Also, my very claim is that firing people for work-unrelated political speech is unethical”

    She was off the clock, but had the Arena.net tag on her bio in Twitter, and she got into a spat with an official business partner, while she created threads about her job. I don’t know how it is in your job, but this kind of shit does not fly in 99.999% of businesses.

    She was the definition of a social moron. Politics are irrelevant.

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  4. @tithian: everyone knows that ANY corporate employee just acts when he is nice with customers. Customers know it too. I’m fully aware that the smiling girl in the shop doesn’t really like me, she smiles at every customer and she probably cracks jokes about my look, speech, whatnot after I’ve left. Claiming the obvious shouldn’t be firing offense.

    Also, even if she had PR roles and held AMA on the clock, wouldn’t it be enough to take these roles away, dock the pay for it, tell her to strip all Anet references and just keep her as lore writer?

    But most importantly, claiming that her politics didn’t play a role is completely dishonest. The whole reddit outrage was because of her politics. Do you think anyone would have been outraged if she simply tells the guy to “leave me alone, I’m off the clock”? No, they got upset because they realized she’s a feminist. So technically the company didn’t fire her for being feminist, but because feminism offends redditors. The outcome of the story is “don’t have any political views that might be unpopular”.

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  5. You should keep your belifs and ideals outside of your job. And if your job is to communicate with player then you should be fired for insulting customers despite if that customer is white male or gay in gay marriage. But her job wasn’t to communicate with players and that’s why so many game companies have “don’t talk with player if it isn’t your job” rule.

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  6. I don’t know what corporate you work for but when I smile to my customers I do it cause I am a decent human. People who aren’t genuinely friendly do not last in customer-facing positions. Jessica is a good example – she could only pretend for so long that she doesn’t hate her customers.

    She wasn’t fired for being a feminist, she was fired for being an extremist, using obscene feminist lie of mansplaining to discriminate against a male customer. I never heard of a feminist getting into trouble for claiming that women are equal to men or even for promoting female participation in tech. The extremists, however, attacking males for being males, deserve all the grief they have asked for. The same way you won’t lose a job for claiming illegal immigration is a problem but you will get fired for Sieg-heiling – whether on company time or off.

    In this particular case, she was interacting with her customers. That puts her on the professional footing and equates being on company time.

    Personally, I agree that people should not lose their jobs for opinions expressed out of their workplaces. However, the market is unforgivable. If a company is perceived as employing extremists they lose their customers. They are left with no choice other than to sack them publicly and make them unemployable in the near future. The left has been employing this tactic for a long time for the simple reason that they control almost all public media (because journalists are more likely to be “liberals” due to common character traits that they share).

    They should also immediately lose their jobs for expressing any and all political opinions on company time. Whether you are pro-life or pro-choice, you should immediately lose your job for expressing it on the same twitter account that is used to interact with customers.

    To explain further, her Twitter had so many followers as a result of working for GW. This means that her followers aren’t hers, they belong to the company. Using her company-provided followers to advertise political opinions is a gross misconduct, just as putting political adverts on a company car would be. Walking into MacDonald’s you don’t expect the staff to hand you election leaflets, do you?

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  7. Gevlon, all your Jessica Price posts are falling to the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy (“after it, therefore because of it”). Just because Reddit was outraged doesn’t mean her firing was a response to the Reddit outrage.

    O’Brien explained to Polygon:

    “Whatever Jessica and Peter felt internally about the situation, this was objectively a customer engaging us respectfully and professionally, presenting a suggestion for our game. Any response from our company needed to be respectful and professional. A perceived slight doesn’t give us license to attack.

    The tweets were made on July 4, when the studio was closed for the holiday. We were aware of them that day, and decided we’d need to take action in the morning. The fact that the community’s anger was escalating on July 5 could make it look like our action was a response to the community’s anger. But that wasn’t the case. We took action as soon as we practicably could.”

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  8. The solution isn’t trying to break her, but the opposite, trying to lure her away from politics completely.

    You reap what you sow.

    I don’t care either way. The SJW, feminist, antifa doctrine clearly dictates breaking the very fabric of the west or other civilizations by any means necessary. So why not break them? They clearly do not hold back so why should we? standards, morals, ethics or feeling bad conscience? this hits deep and letting this questions be only addressed by humanities (the enemy), that are nearly all rotten marxists to the core, can’t be the answer.

    There is no peaceful protest that accomplishes anything, except wasting everybodies time. Gandhi could do what he did and get results because the adversary where Brits!

    How do you break believe? you try to get believers to doubt their doctrine. This is easier said then done. because it is gods will, allahs war path or any other excuse they shove into their mind trying to shutdown any wrongthink.

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  9. @Gevlon
    I’m fully aware that the smiling girl in the shop doesn’t really like me, she smiles at every customer and she probably cracks jokes about my look, speech, whatnot after I’ve left. Claiming the obvious shouldn’t be firing offense.

    Imagine if she did not wait for you to leave before making fun of you. That’s what happened here. Politeness may be a social fiction, but it’s something that corporations naturally expect their employees to follow because it impacts the bottom line. You are never “off the clock” in a world of social media, especially not within days of an important product launch.

    Also, even if she had PR roles and held AMA on the clock, wouldn’t it be enough to take these roles away, dock the pay for it, tell her to strip all Anet references and just keep her as lore writer?

    There is certainly an entirely different conversation that could be had regarding the range of ArenaNet’s possible responses. They might have asked Price to apologize, for example. I doubt she would have, and perhaps that played into the decision. But from an armchair PR/HR perspective, it was certainly bad enough to warrant firing, IMO. Anyone who has worked in retail or public-facing companies in the last 15 years in the US would probably agree (politics aside).

    Do you think anyone would have been outraged if she simply tells the guy to “leave me alone, I’m off the clock”? No, they got upset because they realized she’s a feminist.

    Of course no one would be upset, because just that statement would have been harmless. But strip away the feminism from her comments, and you still get:

    “like, the next rando asshat who attempts to explain the concept of branching dialogue to me–as if, you know, having worked in game narrative for a fucking DECADE, I have never heard of it–is getting instablocked. PSA.” And “Since we’ve got a lot of hurt [feelings] today, lemme make something clear: this is my feed. I’m not on the clock here. I’m not your emotional courtesan just because I’m a dev. Don’t expect me to pretend to like you here.” And: “The attempts of fans to exert ownership over our personal lives and times are something I am hardcore about stopping. You don’t own me, and I don’t owe you.”

    GamerGaters might have been extra mad about the feminism, but as a liberal myself, I wanted her gone too after that. It simply looks bad to and feeds into all the negative stereotypes besides. And from a business perspective, here we are, weeks later, talking about this topic instead of GW2’s latest Living World season episode, which is one of the only means of ArenaNet getting revenue. I hope ArenaNet didn’t spend much money on advertising, because none of it mattered.

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  10. @Stawek: do you claim that you genuinely like every random person who walks in the door?

    Sorry, but Jessica is not an “extremist”, no matter how hateful her positions are to us. Intersectional feminism is common in all universities, Hollywood, Silicon Valley, Brussels, Berlin and London. Her views are shared by tens of millions of people. You can’t dismiss her like Antifa or the torch-Nazis.

    The other problem is she didn’t have a “twitter account used for customers”. She used the same account she had long before joining Anet. So you are implying that your company controls *all* your social media presence – and since most people use these accounts to socialize at all – *all* your time. How is it not totalitarian censorship?

    @Ravanna: he blatantly lied. Jessica wrote much “worse” stuff earlier and weren’t fired. Also, as she wasn’t on clock – hell they were closed for the holiday – a customer couldn’t engage “them” respectfully, he went to Jessica’s online *home*. If a random customer would ring my bell now to complain about the product, I would be completely in my right to tell him to go away and come back during office hours.

    @Anon: why not break them? Simple: because you can’t. Jessica isn’t broken. She still has her vote and her voice to persuade others to vote for some Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. Do you want that? Wasn’t it better when she was busy writing MMO lines?

    How do you break fanatics? By “love”. I think the only person who did anything to convince Jessica that white males aren’t evil oppressors is the guy who was fired with her.

    @Azuriel: not. What happened here is that I meet the shop girl when she’s not working, try to engage in small talk and she tells me to f.. off. Which is completely within her right. “you are never off the clock on social media” means that the company owns all your online presence – and since most people use these accounts to socialize at all – *all* your time. How is it not totalitarian censorship?

    Your feminism-free text looks completely harmless to me and I’m sure no one would have grabbed the pitchforks.

    We are talking about it because she’s fired. Had she not be fired, I wouldn’t have mentioned it.

    Finally: I despise everything she believes politically. Yet, if I had a game development company, I’d offer her a job with the condition to not talk about it on her private time.

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  11. Gevlon:

    1. What motivation does O’Brien have to lie? If he fired Price to appease outraged customers or Redditors, saying so would appease them even more.

    2. What are these “much “worse”” things Price has said before? If they are worse in the sense of being more extreme-SJW, that would support O’Brien’s claim that Price was fired for insulting customers.

    3. Price’s colleague Peter Fries was fired as well for defending her. AFAIK he didn’t play the SJW card or say anything political. I haven’t seen a tenth the outrage against his now deleted tweets. He was fired anyway, for the reason O’Brien claims. Why not Price as well?

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  12. I believe you are not adressing the crux of the issue.
    The crux of the issue is that anti-SJW people (and i’m talking people who actively belive that SJW is evil and needs to be eliminated – the vocal minority driving the whole thing) want to feel like they have the power to oust people from positions of power. They want to feel that because:
    a) they don’t REALLY have the power to oust anyone in position of power
    b) without that power, their stated goals of circumventing what they believe to be pro-SJW establishment are unreachable
    c) their entire shtick is predicated on talking about how these goals are correct, just and right and on how they are going to reach these goals
    d) in order to justify their shtick in face of reality, they need to feel that they have the power, reality be damned
    Since they want to feel that way, they are going to take any chance they get at ousting anyone from their position of any sort of influence. If successful, they can drum up their minor success as a major victory. If unsuccessful, they can complain about the SJWs. Win-win.

    This is a rather common situation in politics, actually. If you want to know more about these kinds of schemes, familiarise yourself with Gene Sharp’s work on “non-violent resistence” and Alinsky’s “rules for radicals”.

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  13. Yes, I do like random people until they do something to the contrary. I am a salesman and everybody in this job is like me or quits.
    She is an extremist. In the UK only 8% of women call themselves feminists. Most of those are about equal rights, not mansplaining. Just because clickbait media give voice to extremists doesn’t mean they are the norm.

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  14. “… Finally: I despise everything she believes politically. Yet, if I had a game development company, I’d offer her a job with the condition to not talk about it on her private time …”

    You obviously do not understand SJWs and how they act. You never ever knowingly let an SJW into your organisation as they are poison on multiple levels. Read “SJWs always lie” and “SJWs always double down” by Vox Day.

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  15. How is it not totalitarian censorship? […] Yet, if I had a game development company, I’d offer her a job with the condition to not talk about it on her private time.

    Hmm. :thinking:

    It’s not censorship because ArenaNet is not the government, and no one should have any expectation for there to be no consequences for their speech. Remember: At-Will Employment. Corporations have complete control to fire you for any reason not specifically protected by the government or union. In your shop girl example, you could certainly walk back into the shop and complain to the manager that one of their workers cursed you out, or fill out a complaint form. It is then in that shop’s complete control whether to discipline them or not. If it means possibly losing you as a customer, chances are good that she is out of a job.

    This is the inevitable endgame of unrestricted capitalism. Good thing you can still contact your congressmen and let them know how you feel. And when they get off the $10 million phone call with X Corp, I’m sure they’ll take your vote into consideration. Or they’ll spend $5 million on Facebook memes, pocket the rest, and get swept back into office on the back of some irrelevant nonsense.

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  16. @Ravanna: because it would invite them to target more customers and enrage the whole industry for inviting lynch mobs.

    2: she celebrated the death of Totalbiscuit among all things. Also, generic SJW nonsense with the usual white and manhate.

    3: I have no idea why he was fired. We don’t even know if he’s fired or resigned in disgust. But while he personally didn’t say hateful things, he stood by someone who did. “I like X” is a nice thing to say, except if X = Hitler.

    @Maxim: my very point is that such people are idiots, their extremism hurts “us” and Anet made them feel and look much more powerful. So “we” should stand by their targets, even if their targets are not better than them (“we” should stand by them when they are under personal attack from SJWs).

    @Stawek: but she wasn’t a saleswoman, she was a coder. I understand that anyone who can’t like a stranger should quit sales. But should they also quit EVERY job, because customers now have the right to engage them at their homes?

    8% isn’t “extremist”. That’s a minority party. The UK has 66M people. Even if there are no male feminists (there are), 8% means 2.6M women. Do you plan to fire them all? What should “we” do with them? Put them to camps? And no, those who are for equal rights are not called and rarely calling themselves feminists. Actually the intersectional feminists call them sexist pigs who upkeep the patriarchy.

    @Adam: there are millions of SJWs. Should we kill them all then? How come that Jessica could productively work on GW2 instead of poisoning (she wasn’t fired until her tweets, so we have no reason to assume she wasn’t an OK employee)? Most SJWs are just gullible people who drank the kool-aid and not evil masterminds.

    @Azuriel: the “not the government” excuse only works if the market isn’t oligopolic. Random restaurant firing you isn’t a problem. If you are fired from tech, you are fired from practically all tech. Want to bet that Jessica won’t find another job in her profession and will become a professional SJW? James Damore still isn’t employed in his profession.

    Also, I’m mostly talking about what’s “right” and not what’s “legal”. I’m fully in my right to express the view “Azuriel is a commie pig”, but I won’t because it’s mean and doesn’t result in anything positive.

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  17. @Gevlon

    You are misunderstanding the extremist position.
    My intent is not to defend the extremist position. I do agree with you that their actions are, ultimately, counterproductive. However, perpetuating misunderstanding of extremists positions does noone any favours either.

    Extremists are not just social, they are counter-social, meaning they believe in and pursue an alternative social order and consider the current social order as an actual enemy. It is not just that everything that they perceive as a win for their social order far outweights whatever harm they do to not-their social order, though this is also true. It is that they are perfectly fine with inflicting harm on whatever they consider an enemy and if that results in the enemy attacking them back, well that’s what an enemy is for, isn’t it. They will then use the counter-push of their enemy to further consolidate their own position, creating a positive feedback loop.

    You see, for these extremists this is not actually about pursuing a better outcome at this point. They are basically too small to affect anything real. This is about attracting attention in order to get bigger, in hopes of one day getting big enough to affect something real.

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